Vidya Bhushan Rawat’s conversation with Ambedkarite writer Sanjeev Khudshah on why he support classification of the scheduled castes for reservation purposes
SAMAJ WEEKLY, UK
Sanjeev Khudshah was born on 12 February 1973 in Bilaspur, Chhattisgarh. He is counted among the top Dalit writers in the country. His works have been published in almost all the leading newspapers and magazines of the country. His “Safai Kamgar Samudaya” from Radhakrishna Prakashan and “Adhunik Bharat Mein Pichda Varg” from Shilpayan, “Dalit Chetna Aur Kuch Zaroori Sawaal” from Shilpayan are among his popular works. Sanjeev Khudshah is the editor-in-chief of YouTube channel DMAindia online. Currently, Sanjeev is doing PhD from Journalism Department. He has also studied law and the important point is that he hails from the most deprived sections among the historically neglected and oppressed sections therefore this conversation becomes even more important. Sanjeev who joined the Ambedkar movement years ago and talked about awakening the entire Dalit society through his writing, is feeling hurt today because he welcomed the Supreme Court’s verdict on classification of Scheduled Castes. Vidya Bhushan Rawat had a detailed conversation with Sanjeev Khudshah’s on his struggles and the social crisis created by this question of classification and why he support the Supreme Court verdict.
You have been an integral part of the Ambedkarite movement and have always been active in Baba Saheb’s mission. You have talked about Dalit unity on your platforms and on others’ platforms too, but today you are being attacked because you have supported the Supreme Court’s verdict on reservation for the most marginalized among Dalits. First of all, tell us what kind of attack is being made on you and who are behind it?
Sanjeev: Actually, I am not supporting the extreme Dalits. I am supporting those who are actually deprived and remained backward among Dalits, who can also be called Mahadalit or extremely Dalits. They are really very backward and the government resources and welfare measures have not yet reached them. At this time, it is my responsibility to stick to my views as a thinker and intellectual and I did that. I am saying on various platforms that both the forward Dalit and backward Dalit castes should sit together and talk. Why is there backwardness? This should be seriously discussed. No one can deny the fact that a large number of Dalit castes are victims of backwardness. I am being called foolish. It is being said that I am an agent of RSS or BJP. My understanding is also being questioned and this is being done by those people who have been very close to me., with whom I have participated in movements. This has also saddened me because they are not ready to understand and listen to me.
After being active for so many years, do you think that our leaders and intellectuals have not been able to move beyond the framework or framework of their castes?
Sanjeev: The 21st August call for Bharat Bandh proved that the Dalit movement is actually a movement of some castes. These castes are only concerned about their own interests. They are not even ready to think or listen about the rest of the Dalit castes. If you want to see an example of this, you can see it in the Ambedkar Jayanti program. It is normally mentioned that it is a public programme of Ambedkar Jayanti celebration, but from its president to all the officials are from the same caste. These people divide the money received from the government. They do not give a share to anyone else and today these people are talking big that the Dalits have been divided. In fact, they themselves are the ones who are dividing it. The same is the condition of the Buddha Vihars across the country, which are not just Buddha Vihars but are the den of caste panchayats.
You have declared the Buddha Vihars as the den of caste panchayats. Is this not too much? Today, not only the Dalit community but also the backward class people are coming to Buddhism across the country and the monks and bhikshus too hail from different communities. After all, why did you feel that they have become the den of caste panchayats.
Sanjeev: Budh Vihar should have been a part of Dr. Ambedkar’s dream project. Dr. Ambedkar had many dreams but only two of his dreams are called his dream projects. First, eradication of caste and second, representation for all. People who came to Budh Vihar stopped eradicating caste and Budh Vihar are locked for outsiders. By looking at Budh Vihar, you can easily tell which Budh Vihar belongs to which caste.
Did you feel that the questions raised by you were justified when you were being criticized,
Sanjeev: I am trying to understand these criticisms and when I think about them, I understand that the questions I have raised or the stand I have taken is absolutely correct.
What is your opinion on the order given by the Supreme Court on the question of classification?
Sanjeev: Two issues were raised in the Supreme Court, first the issue of creamy layer and second the issue of classification. I do not agree with the issue of creamy layer because the problems of Dalits are related to caste discrimination and untouchability. Reservation is not a poverty alleviation program; it is representation which should continue as long as inequality exists.
But I look at classification from a positive perspective. I myself belong to a very backward Dalit caste like Domar and I see that other sanitation workers including Valmiki are still working in adverse conditions. But they are not getting the jobs according their population. Definitely, the backward among scheduled castes will benefit from the classification of reservation. The powerful castes among Dalits are alleging that this will divide the Dalits . The same thing has been said by the upper caste (upper caste) against Baba Saheb Ambedkar also when the Communal Award came.
Today the Dalit movement or Ambedkarite movement seems completely divided on this issue. Those who are criticizing the order of the Supreme Court are alleging that their castes are being accused of usurping their rights which is wrong but it is also not wise to completely ignore the question of the identities of our other brothers and sisters. Have you ever felt that the people of these marginalized communities among the scheduled castes are not able to become a part of Ambedkarite politics and philosophy because of no efforts being made to reach out to them by the leading communities in the movement.
Sanjeev: It is true that it is wrong to say that your rights are being violated or someone is snatching your rights. But the backwardness of these castes cannot be denied. Just like earlier the untouchables were backward, after the introduction of reservation they have progressed. Similarly, if the backward untouchables get separate reservation, they will also progress.
It is surprising that the upper Dalits are not even ready to listen to the voices of the weaker and deprived, leave alone agreeing to it. They cannot be Ambedkarite as they are against the Constitution. Because the Constitution says that the last person should get its benefit. They are creating obstacles in this. It is true that the demands of the backward Dalits, and their problems are not able to become a part of Ambedkarite politics and philosophy because their issues are ignored by the leading Dalits. Marginalised among Dalits remain neglected. They become victims of discrimination. Bahujan Samaj Party never raised the problems of people working in sewers.
You are a writer about whom it is said that he gives a new direction to the society and stands for justice even in the midst of a crowd, even if he is alone. Is literature unable to break the caste structure now? It is said that intellectuals give direction to their movements and politics, but today they are perhaps following the parties and movements rather then leading them.
Sanjeev: I feel that at this time my responsibility is that I stand for the welfare of the deprived, even if I am left alone. Many people among the deprived Dalits are also getting misled by the words of the upper Dalits and they feel that they should stay with them. They are also becoming victims of emotional blackmailing. Upper Dalits are also partners in our movement. We ourselves are also troubled and worried by their attitude. Even today it is hard to believe that they will protest against the backward Dalits in this manner.
Years ago, you wrote a book ‘safai kamgar samuday’or simply ‘sanitation workers communities. Has anyone written anything about the condition of these communities before you? If not, why?
Sanjeev: The problem is that these people in the Dalit movement neither tried to read nor try to know the problems of the sanitation workers community. Writing on them is a far cry. That is why even today they are unaware of those problems and do not want to know. Agitating against backward Dalits is a big example of this.
They did not write about the sanitation workers community because there has been a difference between these two classes for a long time. The Supreme Court has only highlighted these differences. This difference is clearly visible in the programs organized by various Buddha Viharas and different celebrations on Ambedkar Jayanti.
Allegations are being made that the Swachhkar Samaj did not come with Baba Saheb Ambedkar. Many people are saying that they are Hindus and vote for BJP, so they should be taken out of the reservation for Scheduled Castes and put in EWS. How will you answer such questions?
Sanjeev: Only those who have not read Dr. Ambedkar can say that this society did not come with Ambedkar. Please learn about Ramratan Janorkar as well as Advocate Bhagwan Das. There are many such names. All these people walked hand in hand with Baba Saheb from the beginning. People should read Advocate Bhagwan Das’s book ‘Baba Saheb Aur Bhangi Jaatiyan’ i.e. Baba Saheb and Bhangis’.
If you discriminate against your brother, insult your brother, then that brother will be forced to go to those who do not discriminate against them and who love and care. RSS people have reached out to them and tried to understand their problems. Even if their motive was something else, what did the upper Dalits do for these deprived brothers? Apart from protesting against them. The protest on 21st has only widened this gap.
It is very wrong to talk about voting for RSS and BJP. You can guess who votes for whom by looking at the caste of RSS and BJP MPs who have come from Scheduled Caste reserved seats. All of them belong to upper caste Dalits and not to deprived Dalits.
After being associated with Ambedkarite movement for such a long time, do you think that intellectuals lost a big opportunity through which the entire Dalit society could have been united.
Sanjeev: You are absolutely right. Upper Dalit intellectuals lost a big opportunity. After this verdict of the Supreme Court, they should have talked to the representatives of backward Dalit castes and intellectuals. They should have been taken into confidence but they lost this opportunity. In social media, deprived Dalit castes are being abused so much, they are being insulted so much that even upper castes do not insult them so much. Look at the way abuses are being hurled at Ramesh Bhangi on his Facebook post, is this not an atrocity?
Do you think that in this era of social media, many people took it as an ‘opportunity in disaster’ and increased animosity between communities because instead of bringing two different communities together, the entire debate was about ending reservation, whereas reservation has been under attack since 1990, but most of them were silent since that time and some were even calling privatization a good thing.
Sanjeev: The upper caste society has taken advantage of this and has contributed a lot in increasing the animosity between the two communities. In this work, the upper caste Dalits have added fuel to the fire.
Your own life has also come out of difficult circumstances. Tell us about your family background.
Sanjeev: Because we and our family were living with caste identity. That is why we had to face discrimination since childhood. Life moved forward from poverty and helplessness. Education played a very important role in emerging. Especially after getting inspiration from Dr. Ambedkar, I learnt to differentiate between exploiters and saviors and after this I devoted my life to introduce people to Baba Saheb.
How and when did you come in contact with Ambedkarism?
Sanjeev: My maternal uncle Pramod Khurshil ji used to work with Kanshiram Saheb. When he formed BAMCEF, it was my maternal uncle who brought me a book which had the biography of Dr. Ambedkar. I must have been 10-12 years old at that time. He was a staunch Ambedkarite. My father also told me that because of Dr. Ambedkar we are enjoying some comforts today. But after reading the biography, there was a change in me and I also got the inspiration to get educated like Baba Saheb. With the help of education, I kept moving ahead.
In the present circumstances, when the distance between different communities has increased, how will we bridge it? Who will take the initiative and why?
Sanjeev: There is only one way to bridge the gap. “Baat” I believe that “if we talk, things will work out”. Conversation should continue between each other. Only then will the distance end and this gap can be bridged. It is the responsibility of the upper caste Dalits to understand the problems of the backward Dalits and try to solve them. In this, they will have to forget their selfishness.
During this period, did you ever feel that you were at the wrong place because when the question of caste interests arose, instead of standing with the most marginalized people, people started blaming them.
Sanjeev: I absolutely agree that when such an opportunity came that the marginalized backward Dalits should have been supported, then the so-called Ambedkarite upper caste Dalits started cursing them instead of helping them. Because their caste interests were clashing. Ambedkarism and the Constitution do not teach this. The Constitution says that the last person should get resources, facilities and justice.
Is classifying reservations dividing castes?
Sanjeev: I disagree with this. Dr. Ambedkar had classified castes earlier too. Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Backward Classes. Did he divide them? This is wrong. Actually, classification shows how much work needs to be done on whom. If a society considers itself capable, then it should support this classification and not get scared. If the classification was wrong, will you also hold Dr. Ambedkar wrong?
What will you say to the comrades of the Ambedkarite movement, especially intellectuals and litterateurs?
I would expect from fellow intellectuals and writers of Ambedkar movement that they should not abandon each other in such difficult times. They should not insult each other. They should understand the problems of deprived Dalits and stand by them. There may be differences of opinion but there should be no animosity in the minds. Just now the news has come that people of Bhim Army have beaten up some members of Valmiki caste over this order of the Supreme Court. In such times, Ambedkarites and intellectuals will have to come forward to reduce animosity.
